|
Post by eyfenna on Jul 26, 2019 2:22:00 GMT -6
Honest and good words Jhonno. I myself have not worked with a framework thus looking forward to test one when tbirds presents the newest version of his work.
Programming has gone through a fast revolution in the last sixty years. There are a lot of concepts out there that I also struggle to grasp. Yet some elements stay the same and that helps me personally.
|
|
|
Post by aurel on Jul 26, 2019 3:07:18 GMT -6
Yes ,that is true Why is that, development of technology. On 8 bit machines BASIC was main power( + assembler) maybe 10 years back lot of basic dialects exists and 50% of them are not free . Most of them are dead today because authors think that can earn lot of money for . Situation on linux is even worst ,there is no good BASIC dialects for linux at that time where python is overpresented like replacement on all bells... which is ordinary LIE. By the way on Windows Python never gets popularity like have on linux. To be perfectly open i don't like the fact that Linux still is not simplier and better than windows( thank you Linus for that) If we compare the most primitive version of basic with python then basic is still better especially for hobby(indie) programing. There are only 4 native BASIC compiler to executable: pure basic - very good and popular non free (but is not really basic - strange syntax) free basic - very good but looks to me that he lost his way with C++ edition( there are some chances to back to GAS version) power basic - very good and very fast but dead product with zombie support oxygen basic -very good ,relative fast but without documentation,constant core changes ( i use it but i am often pissed off on author because of strange quirks
not real compilers: qb64 - moving into extension direction , main developer abandoned project IWB - or Ionic wind Basic - loosing user base and almost reach the end( if old version exists for Linux i can bet that this one be a main thing) XBLite - very good but abandoned etc etc
there are some others...
|
|
|
Post by aurel on Jul 26, 2019 3:10:29 GMT -6
Framework -heh it is just a fancy word for wrapper around some external library or set of function with specific purpose.
|
|
|
Post by johnno56 on Jul 26, 2019 5:48:56 GMT -6
Aurel,
If Basic is 'moving on' to the big 'trash can' in the sky, and remembering that I am 'basic' kind of guy, what language do you think will replace Basic? Just curious.
J
|
|
|
Post by eyfenna on Jul 26, 2019 8:47:49 GMT -6
Aurel, what language do you think will replace Basic? Just curious. J Let's use an example from the real world, about 30 years ago chalk was used to write on boards, these days markers are used and the boards have changed. Yet art with chalk has not died out. It can be done on paper, stone, concrete and other surface types. Basic languages are like chalk, you won't likely see them in high end industry programs, yet Basic languages have their niche like coding amateur games.
|
|
|
Post by tbird on Jul 26, 2019 20:21:26 GMT -6
I will try not to disappoint lol
Yes, I see it all over the place, but I don't think it will ever die out, the need for a simple easy to understand, very functional language will be there for a long time to come....imo
I kinda agree, it is a fancy word for it, but also a very functional one. It is not supposed to make the added libraries better or more appealing calling it a framework, it just sums it up better. When building a house and you have the "framework" up, you don't say you have all those 2x6 studs attached to those plates attached to that subfloor attached to those floor joices...etc.
So instead of saying I have tools and functions for Box 2 Box collision, Box 2 Circle, Circle 2 Circle, Box 2 Poly, Circle 2 Poly, and Platformer physics for Gravity, Friction, (working on slopes ), Render Engines for Top Down with depth, Birds Eye, Isometric. Spatial Partitioning systems as in screen culling or Bucket System, Scene Editor, Entity Editor with Setup for all the collisions listed above + points, and animations......etc.. Or lets just call it T-Birds Framework.....so much simpler
|
|
|
Post by aurel on Jul 27, 2019 3:31:26 GMT -6
Johnno and others ... I don't talk about BASIC replacement than i am said that Python as such is not replacement for BASIC. I am BASIC guy too..and you know that ..right? BASIC as such is born from FORTRAN & ALGOL ..and you probably know that too. So i think there is no replacement for BASIC in general , modern Basic-S already evolved with elements of other languages :
UDT linked list hash tables unions multidimensional arrays associative arrays dynamic string arrays and with many other things
BUT old core simplicity is still here!
|
|
|
Post by eyfenna on Jul 28, 2019 1:22:45 GMT -6
UDT linked list hash tables unions multidimensional arrays associative arrays dynamic string arrays and with many other things BUT old core simplicity is still here! A lot of interesting and good concepts yet some I know need to be defined by the programmer and depend on tools provided by the language - like direct memory addressing or pointers for linked lists. Basic dialects are fun because they are highlevel and don't trouble the programmer with overal complex technical details of the computer the program runs on. Besides this, there are pros and cons for each topic. Like linked list requiring pointers. Pointers or direct memory addressing grants great control power over the machines memory, however with great power comes great responsibility the programmer has to keep from overwriting memory used and keep in mind to clear the garbage in memory addressed himself at the end of a program or the deal with lower execution speed due to automatic garbage collection. User defined types which include unions are a great way of organising variables or by giving the underlying type an easy to comprehend name related to the function they are used in, however with great power comes great responsibility the programmer has to stick to an easy to comprehend naming convention lest he confuses the reader of the source code or accept the fact that the source code obfuscates other programmers eventually even the author of the source code.
|
|
|
Post by kennn on Jul 28, 2019 3:53:54 GMT -6
All experienced members, I am too busy. However, all your posts are full of technical knowledge! You are so professional!!!!!!!! Sure!!! I respect all of you....
|
|
|
Post by aurel on Jul 28, 2019 9:24:09 GMT -6
heh i can speak only for myself and i am not professional programmer , i am just a hobby programmer with some experience in that stuff. I forgot to tell you about OOP which is another term for UDT programming with little bit more complexity and different names like class,method ,property etc..etc..
|
|
|
Post by Tomaaz on Aug 1, 2019 18:15:25 GMT -6
The main problem with BASIC is it's simplicity (not to be confused with "easy to learn and code in"). It's strictly procedural with limited set of features and that was probably enough in 8-bit era, but in the meantime both hardware and software have become much more complex. Also, BASIC was a single programmer language and wasn't meant to be used by teams of coders. Nowadays, things look completely different. People work in groups and create software that is MUCH more sophisticated.
Another thing is that coding is not limited to programmers any more. They are artists, scientist who use elements of programming in their work and are abolutely not interested in anything related to how computers work. For them even BASIC is to low level. They need easy to use features that let them focus on their real work, not on solving programming tasks. If they want to sort something they expect a simple command to do so. They are not interested in implementing a sorting algorithm. Hence popularity of languages like Python that comes with many features (mapping, sorting, filtering, slicing, matching, cpying, inserting etc.) and easy to use libraries.
"Real programmers" on the other hand need things that let them better organize their code. Enters OOP, functional programming, static typing, memory managment + things related to modern hardware that is much more sophisticated that 8 bit computers.
So, BASIC doesn't really fit anywhere and it has been replaced, but not by one, but by many languages in different areas. Serious software engineers go for C/C++, Java, C#, Go. Those who need something easy to use, for Python, Ruby, PHP or JavaScript. Even in education there are better options (Scratch, Python, JavaScript), because they are easier to start with, but can also introduce modern aspects of coding.
I regularly come back to old-school BASIC and find it often extremely annoying. Creating and manipulating arrays is painfull with loops being the only solution (really?). The same aplies to strings. Both are very inflexible. I don't give a shit about OOP, but elements of functional programming (like applying functions to each element of an array without looping) are really usefull and much faster. OpenEuphoria is probably the closest to "modern BASIC", but it's still not enough - it's not very popular language. For simple retro games/demos BASIC is probably good enough, for anything else - not anymore (there are much better alternatives).
|
|
|
Post by aurel on Aug 2, 2019 3:03:36 GMT -6
for n = 0 to infinity print n,n,"tomaaz is jerk!" next n
or you can Scratch your white polish ass to attract big Python when you read JavaScript!
|
|
|
Post by Tomaaz on Aug 2, 2019 3:50:43 GMT -6
Aurel, fantastic programming skills and intelegent humor. Like always.
|
|
|
Post by tbird on Aug 2, 2019 9:30:30 GMT -6
The main problem with BASIC is it's simplicity (not to be confused with "easy to learn and code in"). It's strictly procedural with limited set of features and that was probably enough in 8-bit era, but in the meantime both hardware and software have become much more complex. Also, BASIC was a single programmer language and wasn't meant to be used by teams of coders. Nowadays, things look completely different. People work in groups and create software that is MUCH more sophisticated. Another thing is that coding is not limited to programmers any more. They are artists, scientist who use elements of programming in their work and are abolutely not interested in anything related to how computers work. For them even BASIC is to low level. They need easy to use features that let them focus on their real work, not on solving programming tasks. If they want to sort something they expect a simple command to do so. They are not interested in implementing a sorting algorithm. Hence popularity of languages like Python that comes with many features (mapping, sorting, filtering, slicing, matching, cpying, inserting etc.) and easy to use libraries. "Real programmers" on the other hand need things that let them better organize their code. Enters OOP, functional programming, static typing, memory managment + things related to modern hardware that is much more sophisticated that 8 bit computers. So, BASIC doesn't really fit anywhere and it has been replaced, but not by one, but by many languages in different areas. Serious software engineers go for C/C++, Java, C#, Go. Those who need something easy to use, for Python, Ruby, PHP or JavaScript. Even in education there are better options (Scratch, Python, JavaScript), because they are easier to start with, but can also introduce modern aspects of coding. I regularly come back to old-school BASIC and find it often extremely annoying. Creating and manipulating arrays is painfull with loops being the only solution (really?). The same aplies to strings. Both are very inflexible. I don't give a shit about OOP, but elements of functional programming (like applying functions to each element of an array without looping) are really usefull and much faster. OpenEuphoria is probably the closest to "modern BASIC", but it's still not enough - it's not very popular language. For simple retro games/demos BASIC is probably good enough, for anything else - not anymore (there are much better alternatives). Your forgetting the most important part, it's also a matter of taste. Even if X, Y, Z languages have all these bells and whistles, if you don't like the syntax or structuring then all that means nothing, and perhaps language B is your best bet.
“Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand.” ― Martin Fowler
See Basic has it covered from the start
|
|
|
Post by aurel on Aug 2, 2019 11:01:08 GMT -6
Yes exactly ..thanks Tbird
|
|